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Scotty
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 Posted - 12/11/2003 : 1:59:08 PM
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| I have everything now to finally make the jump to 37s on the EB with the exception of getting the extended arms. Duff's are pricey at $550. So, I'm thinking of making my own. Anyone know of a setup, or built one themselves? |
Scotty
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Dusty
True Broncaholic
USA
394 Posts
Member #5567 |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 12:14:32 AM
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Not sure why going to 37s would require a wristed or long arms. The nice thing about the Duff arms is that they are bent for tire clearance at full lock, which would come in handy with those 37s. But stock arms will work fine with the lift required to fit 37s, if you correct for castor. Now if its flex you're looking for, either of those choices will provide good flex with some drawbacks. But IMO the ultimate setup for the front (besides going 4-link with full hydro) is the WAH. With stock radius arms the WAH will outflex the hinged or extended arms without the problems inherent in both. If you're set on making your own hinged or long arms, lots of folks have done it. I haven't so I can't provide details but there are several sites out there that do. Google it up!
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Dusty Sharp
Cherry Valley, CA
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Descalzo
True Broncaholic
USA
933 Posts
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Scotty
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Posted - 12/12/2003 : 09:12:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Descalzo
Alright Dusty, you gotta educate us non-owners... what is WAH?
Its BC Broncos Wristed axle housing. Check it out here:
http://www.bcbroncos.com/frontsusp1.html
Its really a unique way to gain that flex.
Dusty, the reason that I want to move to a longer arm is that I am having fits with the caster as it is, and I'm running 7 degree bushings. I could always get the radius arm mount drop brackets, but then that kills ground clearance. I thought about going with a four link up front, but that would be a WAYS off, besides I think I can gain the needed flex with a long radius arm with a HD heim on the body side.
The WAH is an option, but it doesn't fix my caster issue. That damn Nissan power steering I run, is just too tight to not have the proper amount of caster. I feel very "darty" around turns, and its just not real safe in an emergency. |
Scotty
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Descalzo
True Broncaholic
USA
933 Posts
Member #3291 |
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tdmac74
Compulsive Pony Rider
USA
52 Posts
Member #5572 |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 4:50:41 PM
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I built a set of arms for my truck. I will try to take some pictures this weekend and get them up. I was able to add a few degrees of castor to help out with the handling issues. They are also 6" longer than stock and use an 1.250" rod end at the pivot point. Like I said they work well but I am working on a link system to go with the full width axle I have sitting on the floor.
Todd |
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Scotty
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Posted - 12/12/2003 : 5:17:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tdmac74
I built a set of arms for my truck. I will try to take some pictures this weekend and get them up. I was able to add a few degrees of castor to help out with the handling issues. They are also 6" longer than stock and use an 1.250" rod end at the pivot point. Like I said they work well but I am working on a link system to go with the full width axle I have sitting on the floor.
Todd
Send me them when you get a chance! |
Scotty
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Dusty
True Broncaholic
USA
394 Posts
Member #5567 |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 5:49:45 PM
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Scotty if you're going to fab up some arms anyhow, I say make them stock length but corrected for castor, and use a Heim or Johnny Joint at the frame end instead of the urethane bushings, then do a WAH on the axle. I plan on fabbing up some arms like this myself someday. Stock length radius arms are already the perfect geometry to keep your pinion pointed at the output yoke throughout suspension travel. This isn't a huge deal, but its something. The bigger deal is that the frame mount on the long arms is further back, where it can grab the rocks easier. Even worse with the long arms, your handling will ALWAYS be squishy, even on the road (unless you install a swaybar) because you can't pin it like a hinged arm and it doesn't have the geometry of the WAH.
Of course, the REALLY hot ticket would be to build the custom arms corrected for castor then clock the knuckles on the housing to correct the pinion angle while keeping the knuckles at correct castor, then stick the WAH on there. Then again, the REALLY REALLY hot ticket would be the aforementioned 4-link, full hydro, 9/60 hybrid!
My wallet ain't that fat.
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Dusty Sharp
Cherry Valley, CA
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Scotty
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Posted - 12/12/2003 : 8:12:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
Scotty if you're going to fab up some arms anyhow, I say make them stock length but corrected for castor, and use a Heim or Johnny Joint at the frame end instead of the urethane bushings, then do a WAH on the axle. I plan on fabbing up some arms like this myself someday. Stock length radius arms are already the perfect geometry to keep your pinion pointed at the output yoke throughout suspension travel. This isn't a huge deal, but its something. The bigger deal is that the frame mount on the long arms is further back, where it can grab the rocks easier. Even worse with the long arms, your handling will ALWAYS be squishy, even on the road (unless you install a swaybar) because you can't pin it like a hinged arm and it doesn't have the geometry of the WAH.
Of course, the REALLY hot ticket would be to build the custom arms corrected for castor then clock the knuckles on the housing to correct the pinion angle while keeping the knuckles at correct castor, then stick the WAH on there. Then again, the REALLY REALLY hot ticket would be the aforementioned 4-link, full hydro, 9/60 hybrid!
My wallet ain't that fat.
Well, I have done the REALLY hot ticket on the CJ when I turned the Scout 44 front knuckles for caster and improved pinion angle. Its not really something I want to have to do again. A four link is an option, but since this will be a daily driver, I won't go that route. The change in pinion angle won't effect me too much in slow crawling siuations. I do agree that the longer radius arms will reduce the BOA, but it may still be worth it. I might try to build a crossmember where I can mount the radius arms up inside the frame. We'll see how it materializies. |
Scotty
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PW
Compulsive Pony Rider
36 Posts
Member #5604 |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 8:52:35 PM
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I'm not convinced the WAH is the most ideal design. That it can't be locked out would preclude it from consideration for any DD I'd be likely to build. Also, Gary's original design has a lot more bearing area than the WAH. Time will tell if this is important or not.
For me the most ideal would probably be longer arms coupled with an in-cab disconnectable swaybar. The possibility of hanging up the more rearward pivot is something I can live with. Driveshaft plunge would need a close looking over.
Going with the High Tech Redneck telescoping upper link idea is appealing. Coby had something there, he just made it too monsterous to be practical.
Taking it further I'd elim the C bushes altogether and use Hega joints at the axle housing. The left side arm would have Castor adjusting feature(s) built-in. For the pivot point it's hard to beat the donuts. One of Marc Stein's crew commented to me that the stock rubber donuts live longer in desert racing conditions than the urethane donuts do. I'd either set up the arms to use those, or use JJ's such that the cross bolt is in double shear to the frame. |
It's only kinky the first time. |
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DoughBoy
Compulsive Pony Rider
USA
31 Posts
Member #5605 |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 9:02:19 PM
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| I just cant see setting myself up for another leak in the future when the o-rings, gaskets, or whatever the WAH uses to seal lets go... we all know nothing stays sealed forever.. especially when it gets whacked repeatedly by rocks & such. Since theres no way to lock it out, like the rear spring rockers, you compromise stability for the daily driver rig. At least with the wristed arm, you can pin & unpin it at will to decide your own handling / flex characteristics. I know I wouldnt want any extra flex coming down the exit road of Wrecking Ball, if you've been there you know what I mean, if not, you become one with your seat cover & learn to accept the taste of tweed for about 200 yards. |
All Pro Off Road
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Scotty
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Posted - 12/12/2003 : 9:25:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by DoughBoy
I just cant see setting myself up for another leak in the future when the o-rings, gaskets, or whatever the WAH uses to seal lets go... we all know nothing stays sealed forever.. especially when it gets whacked repeatedly by rocks & such. Since theres no way to lock it out, like the rear spring rockers, you compromise stability for the daily driver rig. At least with the wristed arm, you can pin & unpin it at will to decide your own handling / flex characteristics. I know I wouldnt want any extra flex coming down the exit road of Wrecking Ball, if you've been there you know what I mean, if not, you become one with your seat cover & learn to accept the taste of tweed for about 200 yards.
Terry, wouldn't the inner seal in the pumpkin keep that from happening in a front housing?
And yes, I understand what that section of Wrecking Ball feels like. Its still not as bad as the one on JackHammer, but its damn close. I did in the Jeep with a right rear broken shaft, and the rear end kept walking towards the edge of the cliff because of the Detroit spooling. Not a fun section. White knuckle and pray the whole way down! |
Scotty
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Dusty
True Broncaholic
USA
394 Posts
Member #5567 |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 10:33:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by PW
I'm not convinced the WAH is the most ideal design. That it can't be locked out would preclude it from consideration for any DD I'd be likely to build.
It took me quite a while to get my mind around the geometry of it. I'm still not all that clear on it but I figured while I was making up my mind I would just put one in and give it some real-world abuse. Granted, I don't daily drive mine but I've had it on the highway and around town, and I drive it like ricky racer, and its really not too bad. I've ridden in a lot of wristed and long-arm rigs that were downright scary. The WAH, for some reason, seems to enable the front to flex without causing too much on-road sway. Like I said, I still don't quite understand it.
quote:
Also, Gary's original design has a lot more bearing area than the WAH. Time will tell if this is important or not.
That's Gary Yostrum right? I thought his was different in that the radius arm basically attached to a collar that encircled the axle tube, in effect being more like a hinged arm than a wriste housing. I may be wrong on that though as I admit that I didn't take the time to get a REAL close look at it the only time I saw it in person at SOBV. At any rate, the WAH seems to have a LOT of bearing area. The insert sleeve is the bearing, and it extends about 6-8" inside the axle tube. The thrust washers at the collar don't see much load, really only shock loads on hard hits and side hills. But they seem to be adequate to me too, although I admit I'm no engineer. They won't let me drive the train.
quote:
For me the most ideal would probably be longer arms coupled with an in-cab disconnectable swaybar. The possibility of hanging up the more rearward pivot is something I can live with. Driveshaft plunge would need a close looking over.
Going with the High Tech Redneck telescoping upper link idea is appealing. Coby had something there, he just made it too monsterous to be practical.
You'll remember that I had a Coby arm. I sold after thinking about the WAH for a while after Chuck first showed it to me. Yeah the Coby arm had some great ideas but it looked like it was made out of railroad track in a farm shop. At any rate, for reasons I've already stated, the state of the art has passed the hinged arm by already. I agree that his locking mechanism would be sweet for a swaybar disconnect though. Not the hand clamp he actually shipped them with but the hydraulic lockout he was working on when he lost interest.
quote:
Taking it further I'd elim the C bushes altogether and use Hega joints at the axle housing. The left side arm would have Castor adjusting feature(s) built-in. For the pivot point it's hard to beat the donuts. One of Marc Stein's crew commented to me that the stock rubber donuts live longer in desert racing conditions than the urethane donuts do. I'd either set up the arms to use those, or use JJ's such that the cross bolt is in double shear to the frame.
Agreed on the C-bush elim. I like the idea of castor adjustment. I hadn't thought of that although the Coby-style castor arm (for the opposite side from the wristed arm) had this and it was I thought a great feature. For the WAH or long-arm setup you'd have to build the castor adjustment into both arms though, not just the left side (unless this is a PW moment where I once again am missing something!)
Regarding Marc Stein, he drives his rig differently than I drive my Bronco. If I was doing what he does, I'd copy his formulas exactly, his success certainly speaks for itself. I remember when my cousin Mike (McComas) and his crew first teamed up with Stein and his F150 was sitting in Mike's shop while they were prepping it for a race. Mike said "I can't believe we've CHASED this piece of shit all over the desert for so many years!" Its true, the fab and design is less than pretty, but he won a lot of races in it. Another good story about Marc. I was riding around in the back seat of a crew cab chase truck at the Laughlin race a couple years ago, when he had jumped in after a driver change and Mike was now driving the race rig. Marc Winocur was driving the chase truck, and we heard over the radio that the racer was down and Mike thought it was the ring gear that broke. Stein turned to Winocur and asked him "What's the ring gear?" Neither of them knew what that was!
Oh well I suppose I'm now OT. Back to EBs... |
Dusty Sharp
Cherry Valley, CA
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broncnutalloffroad
Compulsive Pony Rider
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Member #5568 |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 10:45:07 PM
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My wallet ain't that fat.
[/quote]
Your wallet's not but.......lol
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Terry Moistner
Fallbrook, Ca
So Cal Broncos
My RigRater Score: 831RRv1.0 with a BOA of 28.89 |
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Dusty
True Broncaholic
USA
394 Posts
Member #5567 |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 10:45:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by DoughBoy
I just cant see setting myself up for another leak in the future when the o-rings, gaskets, or whatever the WAH uses to seal lets go... we all know nothing stays sealed forever.. especially when it gets whacked repeatedly by rocks & such. Since theres no way to lock it out, like the rear spring rockers, you compromise stability for the daily driver rig. At least with the wristed arm, you can pin & unpin it at will to decide your own handling / flex characteristics. I know I wouldnt want any extra flex coming down the exit road of Wrecking Ball, if you've been there you know what I mean, if not, you become one with your seat cover & learn to accept the taste of tweed for about 200 yards.
The o-rings on the inner sleeve of the WAH are to keep the grease that lubes the WAH. Gear oil doesn't run in the axle tube of the D44 unless your inner seals are shot, in which case it would probably come out the end before getting by the seals in the WAH. That said, yes the WAH is another mechanical component that should get routine maintenance. I would say every couple years it should probably be pulled apart and the o-rings checked and the bearing surfaces inspected for galling and/or normal wear. For some folks I admit this is probably a deal killer. It is nice to have bolt-on-and-forget parts. But if you routinely re-pack your wheel bearings, inspect your ring gears, etc., this isn't too much more work. I seem to have my rig up on jackstands with the tires, springs and shocks off more often than not anyhow.
I've never been on Wreking Ball but I've ridden Jackhammer in a very tall, WRISTED Bronco, both up the razorback and down the steep backside of that hill. Yeah both were puckery but I've had my Bronco with the WAH on steeper, more uneven uphills and downhills than that without too much problem. Although, I will admit never for as long lengths as those. Its how high up you are when you're doing it that causes the pucker on that one! |
Dusty Sharp
Cherry Valley, CA
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Dusty
True Broncaholic
USA
394 Posts
Member #5567 |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 10:49:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by broncnutalloffroad
My wallet ain't that fat.
Your wallet's not but.......lol
[/quote]
Do we HAVE to go there Terry? Come on man, we all had a fresh, clean start on this squeaky new forum Scotty was nice enough to get rolling, and here you come with the fat jokes already. Why do you gotta cheapen it!
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Dusty Sharp
Cherry Valley, CA
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Madgyver
Poseur Beach Cruiser
1 Posts
Member #5609 |
Posted - 12/12/2003 : 11:25:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
Even worse with the long arms, your handling will ALWAYS be squishy, even on the road (unless you install a swaybar) because you can't pin it like a hinged arm and it doesn't have the geometry of the WAH.
Is the longer arms really that bad? |
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Scotty
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Posted - 12/12/2003 : 11:33:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Madgyver
quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
Even worse with the long arms, your handling will ALWAYS be squishy, even on the road (unless you install a swaybar) because you can't pin it like a hinged arm and it doesn't have the geometry of the WAH.
Is the longer arms really that bad?
Just curious, but why would it be any different? A Jeep Long Arm setup actually improves handling. If the spring and shock setup are the same, why would a longer arm effect the softness of the spring and shock setup? My rig is extremely stable(read stiff) with Duff 3.5" springs now. Why would a longer arm effect the stiff feeling up front? Yes, it will increase suspension travel, but wouldn't the spring rate be the same if I stayed with the same spring? |
Scotty
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Dusty
True Broncaholic
USA
394 Posts
Member #5567 |
Posted - 12/13/2003 : 12:14:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Scotty
Just curious, but why would it be any different? A Jeep Long Arm setup actually improves handling. If the spring and shock setup are the same, why would a longer arm effect the softness of the spring and shock setup? My rig is extremely stable(read stiff) with Duff 3.5" springs now. Why would a longer arm effect the stiff feeling up front? Yes, it will increase suspension travel, but wouldn't the spring rate be the same if I stayed with the same spring?
Well you gotta remember what it is about the Early Bronco suspension that makes it different from most others, and how a longer radius arm affects it. When you picture the axle housing and the radius arms together, as one solid unit (imagine it without the C-bushings for a moment, as if the arms were welded or cast to the housing), the whole assembly together is shaped like a big "U". That's also the shape of a sway bar. In effect, the stock EB front suspension acts as a sway bar to inhibit body roll on road (good) and flex offroad (bad). My only experience with Jeep suspensions are from back when they were all leaf sprung, so I can't comment on the current designs (although I thought they were now a link-style setup, which wouldn't be comparable to the way an EB radius arm-style suspension works) or their aftermarket upgrades. As for the EB, no, going to long arms won't change the spring rate. What it does do is gives the vehicle more leverage against the "sway bar" (which in this case results in deflection of the C-bushings rather than twisting of a torsion bar, which is how the longer radius arms get more flex). For you Jeep guys, its comparable in theory (though probably not in practice) to driving on the highway with your swaybar disconnects disconnected.
To answer the question "ar the that bad?" I would say no, they're not that bad. They flex like mad and perform great on the trail. I was briefly considering a set of the fancy West Coast Broncos lengthened arms (or copying them) after seeing Jason Dutra's (sicazz66 on the CB board) on the trail with them. And the Duff arms get great reviews that I can't knock. Between the three, the hinged arm, the long arms and the WAH, any one of them will provide as much flex as you can practically use, in my opinion. The differences then are more subtle, and in matters of tangential importance, such as stresses on the unhinged arm, highway performance, etc. And even on those, none of the downsides of any of the three are enough to make any of the choices a "bad" choice. I just think when everything is weighed between the three options, the WAH comes out on top. |
Dusty Sharp
Cherry Valley, CA
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broncnutalloffroad
Compulsive Pony Rider
$ DONATOR
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Member #5568 |
Posted - 12/13/2003 : 7:39:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
quote:
Originally posted by broncnutalloffroad
My wallet ain't that fat.
Your wallet's not but.......lol
Do we HAVE to go there Terry? Come on man, we all had a fresh, clean start on this squeaky new forum Scotty was nice enough to get rolling, and here you come with the fat jokes already. Why do you gotta cheapen it!
[/quote]
Just sharing the love
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Terry Moistner
Fallbrook, Ca
So Cal Broncos
My RigRater Score: 831RRv1.0 with a BOA of 28.89 |
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PW
Compulsive Pony Rider
36 Posts
Member #5604 |
Posted - 12/13/2003 : 8:09:34 PM
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quote:
The WAH, for some reason, seems to enable the front to flex without causing too much on-road sway. Like I said, I still don't quite understand it.
About the only explaination for that is that the WAH has more friction in it than a wristed arm's joint. That friction means nothing when going slow over the rough stuff, but translates into being a damper for higher speed driving, which slows down the transitions. It effectively acts as a very small sway bar when the twisting rate is high.
quote:
quote:
Also, Gary's original design has a lot more bearing area than the WAH. Time will tell if this is important or not.
That's Gary Yostrum right? I thought his was different in that the radius arm basically attached to a collar that encircled the axle tube, in effect being more like a hinged arm than a wriste housing.
Gary Yorston's housing, as I recall it, works pretty much like the WAH does. The axial thrust is delt with differently though, that's what the collar you remember does.
quote:
They won't let me drive the train.
It's not all it's cracked up to be. Wages are low and you're on-call 24/7. Plus, they actually punish you (& you get to pee in the cup) if you scatter parts from hell to breakfast.
quote:
You'll remember that I had a Coby arm. .... I agree that his locking mechanism would be sweet for a swaybar disconnect though. Not the hand clamp he actually shipped them with but the hydraulic lockout he was working on when he lost interest.
I worked a bit with him on that via email. He never ackowledged that. He did find that fail-safe electrically locking collar though. The hydrualic cylinder concept is basically Lee Novikoff's and Coby never could get him to tell what he did. I think I know what it would need in order to work, but the point is moot.
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For the WAH or long-arm setup you'd have to build the castor adjustment into both arms though, not just the left side (unless this is a PW moment where I once again am missing something!)
If there's something missing, we're both missing it. While the WAH could easily deal with only having Castor adjustment in the left arm, you would not want to drive that way very far or very fast.
quote:
Regarding Marc Stein, he drives his rig differently than I drive my Bronco. If I was doing what he does, I'd copy his formulas exactly, his success certainly speaks for itself.
I see dezert racing as a form of advanced 'aging' of the radius arm bushes. That use should see the same extreme range of motion as well as putting many more cycles on the bushes in a short amount of time.
quote:
Another good story about Marc. I was riding around in the back seat of a crew cab chase truck at the Laughlin race a couple years ago, when he had jumped in after a driver change and Mike was now driving the race rig. Marc Winocur was driving the chase truck, and we heard over the radio that the racer was down and Mike thought it was the ring gear that broke. Stein turned to Winocur and asked him "What's the ring gear?" Neither of them knew what that was!
I've heard that said about Stein b4. Sort of the 'Days of Glory' character of the Dezert.
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It's only kinky the first time. |
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Francois
Rockaholic
USA
109 Posts
Member #5635 |
Posted - 12/18/2003 : 03:00:03 AM
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Here’s a pic of my wristed radius arm extended 2” to compensate for my front end being moved 2”s forward, I cut my arm 3” forward from where the bushing mounts and ground around the arm at both cut ends back 3”s to fit into the DOM tubing so I would have to pound it in with a 5 lb. sledge and then welded it around each end of the DOM and rosette welded it also.
I kind of think of the negative points people bring up about a wristed arm like bead locks, yeah there not DOT approved but I haven’t seen anyone produce a ticket with a violation code and a fine amount, and I haven’t seen or heard anyone say there home made wristed arm almost killed them so there swapping to a WAH or extended arm, it’s simple to me, when I feel I need my arm un-pinned I get out and un-pin it, if I’m going to run hard and fast I’ll pin it.
It’s no more of an inconvenience to me than airing down my tires.
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rkolibar
Compulsive Pony Rider
USA
38 Posts
Member #5690 |
Posted - 01/09/2004 : 12:21:32 PM
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Did you install your wristed radius arm yet?
Are you going to beef up the other arm if so how?
I just put mine on. Not tested yet.
Ric Kolibar |
  Ric KolibarTustin, CAwww.Kolibar.com www.socalbroncos.net |
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Scotty
Administrataholic
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Posted - 01/09/2004 : 1:39:04 PM
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I went with the JD arms. Got them on Wednesday. Real beefy arms. Very impressive looking arms to tell you the truth. I plan on installing them the weekend of the 17th. I'll end up doing a tech article for the site....
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Scotty
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rkolibar
Compulsive Pony Rider
USA
38 Posts
Member #5690 |
Posted - 01/10/2004 : 11:54:07 AM
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Here is a picture install
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Ric Kolibar |
Ric KolibarTustin, CAwww.Kolibar.com www.socalbroncos.net |
Edited by - rkolibar on 03/26/2004 7:58:36 PM |
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Socal Tom
True Broncaholic
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Posted - 01/11/2004 : 3:03:05 PM
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For me the biggest weakness of the wristed arm is as it pivots it becomes shorter, this IMO is what leads to the bent arms on the trail. Under a hard load it trys to bend the axle backwards and the radius arm can't take the load. I bet if you look hard you might even find some wristed guys with bent housings.
Thom pointed out before that the extended arms have more leverage than the others, and this can lead to a reduced "sway bar" effect.
The WAH, maintains the OEM geometry, and radius arm length throughout the range of motion. Lots of guys drive cars that don't have sway bars. The early jeeps didn't have them. While they handle better with them on the road, it doesn't mean that they can't handle reasonble well without them.
Personally I think the real problem is the 5.5 inch lift.
I was running 33s with effectivly stock suspension. I've heard of others runnning 35s with just a 3.5 inch lift. So 37s should fit with a 3.5 inch lift and a 2 inch body lift. This should also put the CG 2 inches lower to the ground. As you all know the radius arm bushings limit travel, and they are close to maxed out with the 5.5 inch lift, therefore runnning a 3.5 inch lift should give you 2 more inches of droop travel.
I'm currently of the opinion that the "ideal" setup would be a 2.5 inch suspension lift and a 2 inch body lift.
This gives you modern flexy suspension, that should allow for full range of the radius arm, and room under the body to install longer shock mounts, and it keeps the CG lower than most.
Tom
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Bronco, Jeep, Zuki... I really don't care, just shut up and drive.
My RigRater Score: 823RRv1.0 with a BOA of 25.44 |
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Extended Radius Arm vs Wristed arm
